Hi from Spain, I need some help

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Anchus
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 Nov 2019, 11:39
Location: Spain

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by Anchus » 18 Nov 2019, 18:53

jthyttin wrote:
18 Nov 2019, 17:55
Illumination wise I'd probly recommend 940nm VCSEL (Black Sun Dark Engine Covert or Wraith 940nm) but it depends on your situation and other gear.

Could you describe a little what you want to do with NV? You mentioned boars at 120y, I take that is the maximum you'd be shooting? Would you use the NV for anything else? Next thing is, what would you be using to shoot, centerfire rifle I presume, maybe 308 or larger? The make and model of the rifle somewhat influences how easy is it to attach different NV devices. Also will the rifle be dedicated to NV or do you want to use it for other purposes, if so what are them, including what sights?

Of course there's the budget, how much are you willing to spend and is it all-in or just for sight/illuminator? One thing that's important, and depends on your local legislation, will you be on foot, in vehicle, static position like feeding station? Also the bells and whistles, do you need or like LRF, recording, external display, wifi connection to your smartphone... maybe nice daytime picture also? How long will your sessions be and how about freezing temperatures (these affect choice of power source)?

If you have something available locally, I would prefer that even if price is little higher. If something goes awry it's so much easier to just drop the unit to local store or even post it locally instead of abroad. Of course if the price spread is too much or device you want is not available you have to take the plunge.
Oh, nice.
If I understood, this extra illumination should be added to the 850 nm that comes with the Pard? Or substituted? Also, what is the exact purpose of this extra illumination? Reach further or prevent animals from seeing the IR light?
I want to use NV to hunt boars at about 120 yards away from a feeding station, and I would also like to use it to hunt fox with the whistle. I have a 300 Winchester rifle.
Using LRF shouldn’t be too relevant shooting from 120 to 200 yards, isn’t it?
The most important for me is:
- The performance of the device at night (clarity and range)
- Minimum battery duration about 5 hours
- Changing the scope to my day scope is fast
- Good after sale service (I agree with you in this point)
- Other functionalities are secondary, but of course I would appreciate video, etc.
Many thanks again!

jthyttin
Posts: 473
Joined: 30 Jun 2014, 11:39
Location: Finland

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by jthyttin » 19 Nov 2019, 07:16

If you want to be covert, you should not use 850nm. Maybe you can get away using 940nm LED torch at close range and then integrated 850nm at long range but I doubt it. First time they may not spook but they're very very quick learners even if you don't shoot anything but they get your scent etc.

Reach is not problem with Pard integrated illuminators, but will be at 120y with most others (that is, if illumination is needed, Sightline/Digisight may cope without).

300 Win Mag may raise some worries about eye relief. Estimating range at night is difficult, it depends on location, your experience and preference if LRF is needed or not. You can also use LRF planning and executing approach, not just shooting. Regarding battery duration you should expect to use powersaving features and/or swap batteries or use external power source.

You still didn't mention your budget and rifle make/model, cannot really recommend sight, torch or mounts without that info.

Anchus
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 Nov 2019, 11:39
Location: Spain

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by Anchus » 19 Nov 2019, 09:03

jthyttin wrote:
19 Nov 2019, 07:16
If you want to be covert, you should not use 850nm. Maybe you can get away using 940nm LED torch at close range and then integrated 850nm at long range but I doubt it. First time they may not spook but they're very very quick learners even if you don't shoot anything but they get your scent etc.

Reach is not problem with Pard integrated illuminators, but will be at 120y with most others (that is, if illumination is needed, Sightline/Digisight may cope without).

300 Win Mag may raise some worries about eye relief. Estimating range at night is difficult, it depends on location, your experience and preference if LRF is needed or not. You can also use LRF planning and executing approach, not just shooting. Regarding battery duration you should expect to use powersaving features and/or swap batteries or use external power source.

You still didn't mention your budget and rifle make/model, cannot really recommend sight, torch or mounts without that info.
Ok, then I assume with the integrated 850nm boars may spook me while with 940nm LED they will not, why is this? I found some videos on youtube explaining how to fix the extra torch, it can be a good option to buy it, thanks.

Regarding LFR, I never used it, normally I calibrate my rifle at 100y and if I shoot to a higher range I raise the point a little, but I usually don't shoot longer than 170 yards.

My budget is not something closed at the moment, I would like to spent the minimum but I want a good device that will last me years. I saw the Pard NV007 or the NV 008, with some extra gadgets it could be around 1000 euros (450 device + mounts + LFR + extra torch + batteries?), but if there is some other that will make the difference paying a little more, I will still go for it (i.e. I saw ATN Thor 4 thermal, I would pay 2.500 euros for that). My intention is to spend around 1.000 - 1200.

My rifle is a 300 Winchester Magnum Titan, what is the problem with the eye relief? You mean bruising my eye? or that the device will not support the rifle recoil?

I really appreciate all this valuable insight you are giving.

Regards,

Bob57
Posts: 209
Joined: 25 Jul 2019, 09:01
Location: Essex

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by Bob57 » 19 Nov 2019, 10:33

jthyttin wrote:
18 Nov 2019, 18:03
Bob57 wrote:
18 Nov 2019, 17:44
I can't believe there's people on here that couldn't identify a wild boar at 120yds with a thermal scope, ive only got a cheapo pulsar quantum xq30v spotter and I'm pretty certain i could tell the difference between a fox, badger, muntjack and a boar at more than 120yds.
If thermal scopes were that bad surely nobody would buy one !!
Hey ho, I can identify raccoon dog or hare at 150-200m with a lowly FLIR PS24. That doesn't mean people won't be shooting each other in broad daylight, using conventional optics, taking them for deer.

Just did some math for my friend this weekend. Best of the breed from Pulsar line, Thermion XM50 is only 33% of Photon RT 6x or 23% of my Sightline N475 when talking about resolution i.e. how many pixels target is at given distance.

Wishes don't prevent mistakes...
So according to you,even though you can identify raccoon, dog and hare up to 200mts with a cheap spotter, thermal rifle scopes are a waste of money, and nobody should be trusted to use one on a rifle!!!

jthyttin
Posts: 473
Joined: 30 Jun 2014, 11:39
Location: Finland

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by jthyttin » 19 Nov 2019, 10:59

Bob57 wrote:
19 Nov 2019, 10:33
So according to you,even though you can identify raccoon, dog and hare up to 200mts with a cheap spotter, thermal rifle scopes are a waste of money, and nobody should be trusted to use one on a rifle!!!
No, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. First, it's raccoon dog, not raccoon and dog. Second, I said that I wouldn't use thermal for boars at 120y, because target identification (beyond any doubt) is a problem. Of course there's situations I could make very very sure bet, but still it's a far cry from digital NV that costs 1/10th.

I also pointed out that human mind plays tricks even in daylight and using conventional optics, which are quite superior to NV. Just like my note about the PS24, which everybody that knows something about thermal spotting understands to mean that either I lie or the experience, location, conditions, DIY modifications etc. all play heavily in my favor.

phoenix
BRUCE ALMIGHTY
Posts: 6251
Joined: 09 May 2012, 14:40
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by phoenix » 19 Nov 2019, 11:15

OK, hands up, I've never shot a boar, let alone shooting one using a thermal scope.
However, I have been correctly identifying and shooting foxes for more than 4 years using only thermal and doing that at ranges exceeding 300 yards.
If a boar at 120m is in the clear, I simply don't see a problem in identifying it with any decent thermal spotter or scope.
OK, if it's in cover and only partially visible, then you can't be sure and you must not shoot, but in the clear, what else is there going around to confuse it with?

Cheers

Bruce
LAND ROVER - THE WORLD'S WORST 4X4 BY FAR

jthyttin
Posts: 473
Joined: 30 Jun 2014, 11:39
Location: Finland

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by jthyttin » 19 Nov 2019, 12:38

I had better reply but forum software went awry with the attachments so here's a quick version:

First of all, OP was comparing digital and thermal, using terms like "Assuming I can only afford digital". So we're talking about £2000 thermals here at most, not top of the line £4000. And even with top of the line thermals, you get as many pixels at 50m than let's say 6x Photon at 150m. So 120y would be 360y for Photon, and I can for sure say it's a stretch even with perfect illumination. With lower spec units the situation is a lot worse. Combine that with the completely different way of displaying the world, one which your brains are certainly not used to...

Wild boar are not solitary save for the males (boars) for most of the year. Usually you want to shoot the piglets and yearlings, and avoid shooting leading female. They vary in size from let's say 10kg to 200kg and when feeding there's no saying how they're positioned etc. Here's some random pics, good luck identifying target, which way it is and ensuring the shot is clear.
20150725-0455-PIC.JPG
20150722-2236-PIC.JPG
20150531-0149-PIC.JPG

Bob57
Posts: 209
Joined: 25 Jul 2019, 09:01
Location: Essex

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by Bob57 » 19 Nov 2019, 14:12

jthyttin wrote:
19 Nov 2019, 12:38
I had better reply but forum software went awry with the attachments so here's a quick version:

First of all, OP was comparing digital and thermal, using terms like "Assuming I can only afford digital". So we're talking about £2000 thermals here at most, not top of the line £4000. And even with top of the line thermals, you get as many pixels at 50m than let's say 6x Photon at 150m. So 120y would be 360y for Photon, and I can for sure say it's a stretch even with perfect illumination. With lower spec units the situation is a lot worse. Combine that with the completely different way of displaying the world, one which your brains are certainly not used to...

Wild boar are not solitary save for the males (boars) for most of the year. Usually you want to shoot the piglets and yearlings, and avoid shooting leading female. They vary in size from let's say 10kg to 200kg and when feeding there's no saying how they're positioned etc. Here's some random pics, good luck identifying target, which way it is and ensuring the shot is clear.

20150725-0455-PIC.JPG
20150722-2236-PIC.JPG
20150531-0149-PIC.JPG
So you have the leading sow, yearling and piglets all running together, milling about feeding and you're saying the farmyard collie could be in there with them,surely there would be one or more that was clearly identifiable for a shot, how many other species hang out with wild boar??
I think Bruce's reply tells the real truth about thermal, and yes i know you can never be 100%certain with thermal but the same can also apply with digital on those murky misty nights, where thermal would win :lolno: , just boils down to good old common sense whether you take the shot or not.

phoenix
BRUCE ALMIGHTY
Posts: 6251
Joined: 09 May 2012, 14:40
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by phoenix » 19 Nov 2019, 14:38

OK, guys, let's get back on topic here.
We have a new member who is looking for advice, not an argument between forum members.

Cheers

Bruce
LAND ROVER - THE WORLD'S WORST 4X4 BY FAR

Bob57
Posts: 209
Joined: 25 Jul 2019, 09:01
Location: Essex

Re: Hi from Spain, I need some help

Post by Bob57 » 19 Nov 2019, 14:54

Sorry Bruce I thought I was on topic, as I said to Anchus in my original post if he could afford it get a thermal scope for boar shooting, yep 940 nm ir would do the job too , and yes cheaper but also has its drawbacks, ie weather conditions and noisy switches!!

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