I have a favour to ask

[22-250jock]

hi Paul
out of interest what calibre/calibres are you putting in for and what reasons have you given for needing them?

cheers jock

[Gloop]

And join Basc or one of the other organisations, get insurance and other stuff.

[paulham]

Hello all, thanks for being so helpful and supportive.

Regarding the calibres, I haven't actually sent in a application yet, but I've been researching and have drafted a application form with the following
17hmr 22lr And 223

Reasons are for rabbit and fox control, as the met police do not allow 17hmr for fox then it seems the only option is a cf round, the foxes need to be controlled so I don't know what the FEO will suggest if he won't allow me a 223.

As I said, these are only drafted up and im open to changing.

I'm aleady with BASC as a Airgun member and I have contacted them to upgrade my membership to full. The officer I spoke to on the phone even suggested that I 'join a organisation like BASC'.

Cheers
Paul

[SikaStag]

When you do put the application in. Make sure you put down as well as the permission you have, Anywhere else as a guest or paid for Stalking with the owner of the lands permission or the person that holds the shooting rights on that land. This should give you an open licence from the get go.

Ian

[paulham]

When you do put the application in. Make sure you put down as well as the permission you have, Anywhere else as a guest or paid for Stalking with the owner of the lands permission or the person that holds the shooting rights on that land. This should give you an open licence from the get go.

Ian

Ok I'll put that in and try my luck.

Thanks

[22-250jock]

think your spot on with calibre choice, reasonably cheap to run if you dont homeload, good choice of ammo and rifles. deer legal for roe in scotland and muntjac and chinese water deer in england

dont forget to add mods for all calibres

also put down to hold minimum of 500 and to buy 600 as it can work out cheaper to buy in bulk and you dont want to be traveling miles each time you need some more rounds

take it your permission has been cleared for all calibres your asking for

cheers jock

[hillkeeper]

Hello all, thanks for being so helpful and supportive.

Regarding the calibres, I haven't actually sent in a application yet, but I've been researching and have drafted a application form with the following
17hmr 22lr And 223

Reasons are for rabbit and fox control, as the met police do not allow 17hmr for fox then it seems the only option is a cf round, the foxes need to be controlled so I don't know what the FEO will suggest if he won't allow me a 223.

As I said, these are only drafted up and im open to changing.

I'm aleady with BASC as a Airgun member and I have contacted them to upgrade my membership to full. The officer I spoke to on the phone even suggested that I 'join a organisation like BASC'.

Cheers
Paul

Hi Paul, dont pay to much attention to what the police have told you it sounds like you've had a conversation with someone who is acting beyond their remit! firstly you are allowed to have fox as a condition for a 17 hmr as along as you have the rifle for rabbits as well ( e.g. they dont like you to have it for foxes alone)
My brother in law is in the met police district and has a 17hmr for both! you just have to stand your ground with them! secondly the whole accompanying thing with a FAC holder is not a stipulation of the law just a thing that they like to try and put pressure on people to do, you are not obliged to agree to it, I used to work with trainee gamekeepers at a large landbased college and they would reguarly come to me stating that their police firearms officers were asking the sort of things you have stated here and I would tell them to stand their ground and hey presto the officers backdown, why? Because there is no remit for the things they are asking, they may tell you that they dont issue "open certificates on first applications" this is nonsence also!! You really need to read and print out a copy of the "home office firearms law guidance to police" http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio ... iew=Binary this is what the police work from if they try to tell you something that seems wrong ask them to point to where it stipulates it in there and watch them panick! You only have to prove you have a geniune use/need for the firearms you are applying for e.g. land permission, the species on that land to shoot, that you have selected the appropriate firearms for each species ( see police guidance), a clean record and references to vouch for your good character.

Good luck

Ed

[SikaStag]

"home office firearms law guidance"

HillKeeper. I am sure you have written that title, not quite as it should be.

Home office firearms law, guidelines.

I am sure you will find the above is the correct heading. I have a hard copy of the guidelines and to be honest. I do not think you can quote from the guidelines to a licensing department of a Police force, they are only guidelines not guidance that has to be followed. I have ran into this as well in the past. Of all the forces in the UK, none of them follow the guidelines to the T.

Different forces, enforce only certain parts of the guidelines. A, for example is having ammo written into your license on each purchase. Peter Jackson of Jackson Rifles, never wrote anything into a certificate. That was ok for people that lived in the same area as him. My Brother inlaw bought his ammo from Peter. He lived in an area covered by a different force. When his renewal was due. He had a blank certificate. They cut him down from buying 200 rounds of each calibre to only 40 rounds. Someone mentioned earlier that Paul should get 600 rounds of each calibre. To be honest I never read what Paul is applying for. If it is centre fire ammo, you would only ever get 600 up here if you were putting down target shooting as well.

I can buy a 1000 rimfire and keep 1100. I just sold a .22 semi auto custom build. I also have an Anschutz single shot bolt action. I was told by the firearms liaison officer that I would never get the second .22
I told him to watch this space. I got it no problems. As long as you can give good reason, you will normally get it.

Some people in this Country think like Americans. It is our God given right to have Firearms. In this Country it is a privilege that is granted, that privilege can be taken away just as quick as it was granted.

Another myth is that you have to have no criminal record in order to get your FAC or to keep it after it has been issued.

I had a situation where I got into a fisty cuffs with a local bully. He was brought down a peg or two. He called the police and I was charged with assault. I was given a 6 months deferred sentence that basically meant that I was to be a good boy for 6 months, if I was a bad boy I would get the full weight of the law come down on me for the first incident and the second. I had never been in trouble with the police in my life.
I went back to court after the 6 months was up as was the request of the court when I was given the 6 months deferred sentence. I was admonished. English law does not have this. It basically means you were found guilty of the crime but under the circumstances of the crime the court takes no further action. I wrote a seven page A4 letter to the chief of Police explaining how this situation came about. I received a letter back saying that under the circumstances he was not going to revoke my FAC. 5-6 years later I applied to become an RFD. My application sailed through with no problems. That was about 14 years ago.

Ian

[hillkeeper]

Sorry if title was wrong way round hope link was ok though.

I was speaking from personal experience and know how much disparity there is between interpretation of firearms licencing hence why the guidelines were developed. From personal experience they have helped me help more than 25 trainee keepers applying for their first firearms certificates whom have experienced similar problems to those expressed in this thread. For those without a basic grounding in the codes that govern firearms applications it (in my opinion) gives them a good understanding of when the firearms officers are trying to fleece them, and in my past experience has helped first time applicants to avoid falling into the pitfalls of conditions on their licences that they could have avoided if they stood their ground with their firearms officers. I know Scotland differs in how laid back or lacking in enforcement its firearms certification is. I had a similar issue when I moved to Scotland five years ago with ammunition not being signed onto my ticket somthing that in my previous constabulary's of Gloucestershire and Hampshire would have got you into serious trouble!!
On the issues of criminal record its getting tougher, as two keepers in this area have just lost their certificates and guns, the first for a minor scuffle with a neighbour and the second for a drunk in charge of a motor vehicle offence something that 20 years ago you might well have gotten away without, and after the recent problems with the Durham constabulary and its licensing policies one thats set to get much tougher.

I just dont like the idea of new applicants been told they have to accept unresonable and restrictive conditions on their certificates when it isnt the case.
I think the most singley hard inccident I had to deal with was when a seventeen year old trainee with his whole keeping career ahead of him came to me tears cause his firearms officer had told him he could only get a deer legal calibre if he could get someone to accompany him stalking for a whole year! And coming from a poor background and not knowing anyone who could help couldnt see anyway of doing this, but credit to him he stuck to his guns (so to speak) and after much coaching asked the officer to proved him with the written requirment in law for this condition and they issued him a deer legal calibre without the restricting conditions in the end without any further comment on the subject.

I hope Paul hasnt been put off to much by this banter from applying for his certificate, my brother in law is in the Met constabulary and I know from his experiences they can be trying, but he's stuck fast and used the home office guidance in hard copy during the application process to great effect, all the best in your application Paul and make sure that your certificate conditions work for you and not your local constabularys statistics.

Ed

[SikaStag]

Ed. I am in total agreement with all that you have written.

I was just correcting the way that you had written the guidelines. Was not a dig at you.

We seem to be quite like, I have helped lots of people fill in there FAC Cert application. It is all in the wording.
You put it down on paper the correct way. Then you have given good reason.

I have an excellent relationship with my firearms liaison officer. He comes to the house and as soon as he is in, he will say. Get the kettle on, I will need a cuppa. I tell him what I want and he never ever says, I do not think you will get that.

When I came to Lothian & Borders. It was a breath of fresh air. as opposed to the Strathclyde region. It was a case of ask for what you want and you get it, in Strathclyde, you had ask for twice what you really wanted knowing that you would be knocked down.
I was asked by a Strathclyde Police Firearms officer if I would move back to Strathclyde, as I would do things for them as well as Lothian and Borders. If they had a damaged gun case or Gun that was their fault, they sent it to me to have it repaired.

I would say guys of my age and older have lived through the good years for having a shotgun and Firearms Cert.

I can remember as a boy people getting on a bus with a shotgun and a dog and getting dropped off at the side of the road near the fields which he hunt all the way back to town. Now if you have a Stalking knife and a member of the public happens to see it. Its the armed response team that is called out.

Things have gone from bad to worse, There will be more Red tape and hoops to jump through for all us, just to keep what we have.

Ian